Help, this Japanese Maple is dying and I have to replace

I am losing this fabulous maple. The trunk is necrotic all the way around and it is dying as I write. It has been planted over five years, is 12ft tall, 8 feet wide and very visible. It is my favorite tree. One arborist thought it has verticullium wilt and my other arborist does not see absolute evidence. He says emphatically that all of our trees and shrubs were planted way too deep and that they are stressed. The extreme winter conditions deep freezes contributed. He thinks I should get a hardier type of tree than a Japanese Mpale, and I need something that stays small, has this upward growth, open habit so we can see through it trees close by and really want something that will give us lushness. It is not a big area. We talked about dogwoods, but the dogwood I have ten feet from there never blooms and doesn't thrive. Plus it just doesn't have that look that I am I am wanting near water. Please, help. I am heartbroken. I have one other Japanese Maple that is very stressed but is still alive and looks like it has a chance. The other four are doing well.

I am sick about how trees are raised in nurseries and then planted. Both of the arborists I spoke to say the top of the roots are at least six inches buried on all of our trees and you should see root crown and NONE of mine came like that in the root ball or were planted that way. In fact, the nurseries shipped them with 3 to 6 inches of clay on top of the crown. Now we are digging out and putting in basalt gravel to allow some air and to help the trees. I think we have over 50 trees planted like this. Please help with selection. I am wanting to try another Japanese Maple, perhaps a red one that is hardier and planed correctly but I need help.
Crazy

hello crazy - first it looks like you have a beautiful home!

can not tell from the picture if the tree is diseased - any chance of showing the problem area? Is the bark cracked at all? what zone are you in?

bill

Should be zone 5.

oh, this picture was taken last year and the tree was fine. This year it has black bark on specific branches and necrotic bark around the base of the tree. I will take pictures of it, but it is obvious it is going to die. We had -10 in Oct. and it killed about a third of the Japanese Maples in our area. I am not totally suprised that I lost one of them, but this one in particular is protected and was very vigorous. I am sick. We are zone 5b and the arborist said it is a matter of time for our zone. I've had them in the past here with success and loss. I cannot see another type of tree in this area.

What I am amazed at was the arborists opinion that 95% of the landscapers plant all trees too deep. How can they be so stupid?????????? I've dug around the base of these trees and they were planted level with the soil of the root ball they came in so they came from the nursery that way. The crowns are all at least 6 inches below the soil.

Crazy

It is heartbreaking to lose such a fine tree--I feel you pain! Japanese maples can be both zone 5 and zone 6, depending on the variety, so when you replant, be sure to get a zone 5 type of tree, and -10 should be fine. I think you should get another one--you are right, nothing else looks the same.

On the topic of depth of planting, the same problem exists with all the mulch being piled 6" high around established trees, right up against the stem. It is not good for them, yet the landscapers and homeowners do this all the time, thinking it looks good, or that it makes mowing easier. And trees become ill, even die, from it.

Before you plant another JM there, you might want to get some more opinions on the verticillium wilt. The fungus that causes it stays in the soil, so if that was what killed this tree and you plant another JM (or other susceptible plant) in that area, it could end up with it too.

Allot of things can cause a JM to die .. most varieties should withstand -10 thats at the 5/6 range not a solid zone 5 even in an unprotected spot unless it wasn't hardened off totally before that .. which is possible .if you had warm weather up til then .. Many Jms were zapped in Oregon and in your area by that cold snap but most of those were left out in pots at least in northern Oregon. Planting too deep can cause root rot and problems BUT as said before it may be in your soil and sometimes Vert. doesn't show itself til a tree is in distress if in fact it was hurt by the cold..but not killed .. Replanting in the same exact spot is definitely NOT recommended .. unless you get the soil tested.. Many nurseries in that area have had vert. problems and that should be checked... Davidsan

None of my trees had hardened off. We had no fall color on any maples. My Canadian Cherries had turned when the 20 degrees hit us on Oct 11. The JM's leaves freeze dried on the trees and I was worried I would lose all of them. I understand that many nurseries lost 30% of their JM stock and there are many trees that did not survive. In addition, we had a mild winter and almost no snow cover and many of my other plants are struggling, some are gonners. Can you help me to find who will test the the vericillium wilt? My arborist says he only knows of one man in Seattle area and it is extremely expensive. I would like to know before making a decision. I can ship the soil and branch/bark samples so they don't have to be close.
Crazy

cut off a branch that looks infected and look for any black rings on the inside of where you cut. if there is black rings then you have the wilt. you might have to cut in several areas of the branch or several branches. make sure you disinfect clipers after the cuts so as not to contaminate anything else.

Dave

That should tell you but if you are still concerned contact your cooperative extension service they should have a list of test places ... with all the nurseries in Or and WA you should have several to choose from .. cost?? who knows

http://ext.wsu.edu/

I got sidetracked today and will call them tomorrow. My arborisrt is very knowledgeble and says there is only one private entity in the state who does this testing and it is extremely expensive. My question over and over was HOW expensive and I never got an answer. So I'll call WSU tomorrow but I understand they have been cut way back and don't have the faculity they used to have. I took their Master Gardner equivilent class a year ago and have learned a lot. My biggest lesson in this process is to plant trees and shrubs properly and that most landscape companies plant them incorrectly and the growers bury them alive. It is very frustrating for me as a consumer.

Dave, my arborist cut through different branches and looked for something at the base of the trunk to verify this wilt and did not find it. He said it could be but he could not find absolute evidence. This tree has been such a trooper and I think it was planted improperly but before I invest in another one, I want to know whether or not that fungus will get another. He wants me to get away from JM's but I am in love with them. I have six of them and see them thriving here. I do knoq noq when you have an early harsh frost, be prepared to cover and protect them, which I have not done.

Crazy

Hey Crazy,

As long as you don't have verticillium wilt, I'd follow your instincts and ignore your arborist and plant another Japanese maple if the one you have does die. It just looks so happy in that picture you posted and I have a hard time imagining any other kind of tree fitting that area as nicely as your JM does. Of course, I'm 100% biased, but if you're looking for Japanese maple enablers, you've come to the right place.

Crazyforplants, I get strange looks at nurseries, because when I see a plant I like I take it out of the pot to see how root bound it is, then check where the root flair is, sometimes you see where half of the roots are dead on one side. so it's already in the proccess of dying. the nurseries say they get them that way. and the nurseries say they don't have time to repot. isn't it their business to supply you with a healthy tree and root system? so you come back and make more purchases. Jim

I finally found a lab tech at WSU in the Tri-Cities area by googling and sent her several branch samples to be tested. The ext office here does not provide that test. I was told that conservation might provide a soil test for me but I will wait for these branch results first. If the branches test positive, then I don't need to test the soil. Mostly I get voice mail and slow resonses. Frustrating. The cut branches do not have the dark ring that is often accomanied by VW. I pruned off the dead branches yesterday and looked more closely at the tree. The branches that are dead are black, they look like they have been burned. There is death occuring in many areas of the tree but most of the tree looks good. If I remove the entire branch, it will not not have good form. I would like to know "why" so that I don't repeat with another tree. I have learned a lot about trees being sold that are already doomed. It this is not VW, I will plant another JM, hardier variety and make sure it is planted correctly. I don't know how long the testing takes. The sample should get there today. I'm going to post a few pictures that show the tree as of right now. I just snapped them. This put in the last picture and is not the one I wanted to show with the bad branch. But you can see the condition of the tree from this side as well. I'll post the worst branch and trunk in the next two posts
Crazy

cut dead branch

my arborists removed the bark to see how far around the desication went and it was all the way around. I hope he didn't do damage. He said it was a done deal.

another photo of the bad side. You can see withering leaves at small branch that was cut. There is one branch below that area that is green and healthy looking. My bark has always had this mottling but the tree did well. Minor scorching in August from sun was not uncommon but the tree was always very healthy and I had to have it pruned to keep it from turning into a bush.

interested to hear the test results

me too, Jim

If you are concerned about soil disease, perhaps you can place a large planter with another tree in the same spot, it may not be as aesthetically pleasing as the current arrangement, but it may help if the problem is soil-based.

So sorry to see you are losing an obviously loved tree.

Laura

I am not so sure. The VW test came back NEGATIVE. Yeah. They tested several branches and said they could find nothng. So now I thihk I have some fungusamungusa and will live with

I wanted to finalize my comments on my tree. I had the initial arborist come over to talk about and look at my tree now that we know what isn't the problem. He saw where the other arborist had torn the bark back all the way around the trunk. This second guy said there is about half the trunk that is alive, where the cambian layer is intact. That ripping the bark away only showed that the bark was weak, not evidence of dead tissue underneath. The dead cambian that he found (about half) thought was an old injury as you could see where it was growing a newer layer in efforts to repair itself and it was not new. This injury of the trunk is an old injury as there would not be as much new tissue in such a short period. The tree is compromised and will probably not survive long term but it is might make it a few more years. We don't really know how long this injury was there for. We pruned the dead stuff off and know there will be more death but it looks good at the moment. It is producing heavy pods, which he said they often due when stressed or dying. I have heard that before. I am disappointed that this other arborist ripped the bark off a very still beautiful and visible tree and told me it was all dead when I can see it is not. I will replace with another Japanese Maple and figure the extreme freeze last October was too much but it was hurting before then. I just could not see it.

Crazy

I have a few maples with the same conditions and they are still going strong. You have to ways to look at this;

cut it down and replace it or live with it. My Crimson King the deer got at and half the tree has the scars on from buck rubbings. the scar is about 3' long. other then that the tree is surviving quite well. It is all about aesthetics and what you yourself can tollerate.

Dave

Thanks, Dave. I will wait for fall and decide if it looks worth trying another year. It depends on how it looks by then. With half the cambian layer intact, I will give it more time and see how it responds. I can see I will have to be removing dead wood throughout the winter.

If it is time, we will cut it down and pay someone to dig out the roots. I might even wait until spring to purchase a new one as then it wouldn't have to struggle through winter. Right now it is fine, not great but fine.
Crazy

It's not just the landscapers crazy. I bought a tree once and it was already buried too deep in it's pot.. I was able to plant it correctly but when I phoned the nursery they checked and all of the trees from that vendor had been buried too deep in their pots. If I hadn't lost a couple of trees already to crown rot I never would have caught it.

doss, it's amazing how many plants at nurseries are like that, way too many, I won't buy a tree, plant, without taking it out of the container and analyzing it. even if I get caught doing it, it's better to be sure, than throw your money away. I think these nurseries all subscribe to the, the customer is too stupid to know handbook. when I've told clerks that this is a problem, they all gave me that, he's a troublemaker look, and made some dumbass reply, that made no sense whatever. like oh! they'll grow out of it. or they'll just grow more roots to make up for it. this is what your dealing with. Jim

Jim

Are you referring to a nursery or a garden center. In my world those two names are completely different scenarios.

Dave

Actually the nursery that I bought the tree from specializes in JM's and repotted all of the trees from that vendor. They were very responsive. I asked them to come and trim a tree that is too big for me and I sent them home after the first cut though. I do have someone now who is really very good.

Dave, so what's the point? either one can have badly planted plants in pots, that come in from a wholesaler, Jim

The point is people mix up a garden centers limited knowledge with that of a grower (nursery) and it always comes back to the wholesaler as doing a bad job when the fingers should be pointing to someone or place that is botching up the job. A wholesaler would never do the job as bad as you are stating and expect his product to survive years, maybe as long as 10, at the nursery and still be able to ship the product for sale. The product would have been DOA before reaching the garden center. All I am asking is to put the blame where it belongs. I guess you can look at it like saying you went to a doctor about a back pain or sciatic nerve problem and you were told in order to feel better you had to be manipulated into a pretzel shape for relief. Then someone says to you that a orthopedic doctor gave you that advice, and you say a chiropractor told you this.

They both call themselves doctors but surely you can see that one has limited knowledge over the other.

Dave

I really haven't been following this thread .. but I will put my two cents in .. Most reputable nurseries that deal in allot of Jms will repot trees that are too root bound or planted wrong if they recieve them from a wholesaler and most wouldn't buy again . In reality a root bound tree is a hassle since it needs constant water and is too much work ... Dave is correct there is a big difference from a grower nursery or a nursery that has allot of knowledge of Jms and knowledgeable staff...... from a garden center big box store that maybe has one employee with some knowledge that is not there all the time ..

The idea of taking plants out of pots to check the roots is totally absurd!!!... I would ban a person who did that from ever coming back to my nursery .. after a stiff kick in the pants out the door. If the tree is healthy and you buy it and take it home and find it is root bound or planted wrong just repot the thing like Doss did and inform the nursery .. you will be doing so anyway or planting out .. It is unlikely the effects, if not already seen, would be significant if it was remedied upon purchase.. If you are buying from a garden center or big box store you gets what you pay for anyway

Dasvidsan

davesnursery, Davidsan, thanks for the education, I'll have to rethink my strategy on shopping for plants, wouldn't really like a kick in the pants. but maybe I did deserve it. for my peranoia, have thrown a few dollars away getting plants home and loosing them because of problems. maybe something I was unaware of in my early collecting days, thanks for the heads up. Jim King

Is looking at the roots before you purchase taboo because it suggests the customer doesn't trust the seller or is it taboo for another reason? I don't personally check the roots but I've seen many tv programs and read many articles that suggest you should since the root ball is part of the plant you are purchasing and you want to make informed decisions when you buy. Buyer beware and all that.

I could see that if you pulled a plant out that wasn't root bound and the container mix spilled out that would be a real problem. On the other hand, I don't think a customer should have to make a second trip and go through the uncomfortable process of asking for a replacement or a refund.

Basically.. your one statement on those that are not root bound is apropos .. it makes a total mess and the plant has to be re-potted .. if it is root bound it will easily pop out of the pot but when you put back often there is an air space between the pot and plant and that is NOT good the plant will even need more water and be damaged and hard to see to boot to remedy by the nursery...Basically all I was saying if the tree looks great it is easy to fix any root bound tree in short manner and you would have to do some root pulling and spreading on any tree you buy if has not been repotted super recently .. in which case you may get a great preened root system that isn't bound but you are also likely getting ripped off from the nursery up-otting a smaller plant and selling it for a larger one .. There is no safe way to buy a tree but to do so from a reputable e-tailer or nursery specializing in JMs and there are a "few" out there.......which is also Dave's point, I believe ( remember there are nurseries and etailers thart sell Jms but don't special;ize in them or know much about them just as there are horticulturalist, arborists and other specialists that know generally but not specifically about them and we can see what happns with them from the first part of this post .. they may be the best in their field like a top notch nursery but know little about Jms specifically .. Buyer beware is the keyword and as i said you sometimes get what you pay for but not always as in the case of some high prices nurseries and etailers...

Thanks for sharing your perspective on that, Davidsan. I definitely see where you're coming from now.

I'm well into August and see the tree is losing ground every day. I am removing more dead branches. There is a lot of scorch on most of the leaves and I think it is just not getting enough moisture through the cambien layer. So I am assuming it won't make it long term or will not look acceptable. I have removed almost a third of the tree this summer and see another dead branch to remove.

I noticed on Davisdan's site he like the umegame JM. I was wondering if this would be a good replacement tree? I am pretty sure now this was caused by a sudden freeze in Oct that damaged many JM's in our area. My larger red one is not leafing out as much as usual but there is no visible decay to the bark and leaves are pretty much everywhere. I am hoping it comes back next year with vigor.

So any help on replacing the green one? It gets enough late afternoon sun, I don't want something that will scorch? I will have to order it through a local nursery and plant in the fall or next spring. I want a large one, at least 8 feet tall. I know it is going to cost.

Crazy

Umegae is a truly fab tree but it may not be big enough for you ... .. It seems to be upright but bushy but can be easily trimmed , shaped or opened up.. I think most would consider it a semi dwarf .. It is not common although out there you may find one .. yes one of that size if obtainable ( questionable in that size ) would be very pricey. After it gets going it grows fairly fast ..It does not burn in full sun and is extreemly hardy . and has a differnt look in all it's growing seasons.. it is very distinctive and identifiable...Davidsan

I just started reading this thread because I'm thinking of getting a JM and I live in zone 5a. I was alarmed by the mis-potting. What can I look for when I buy a tree from a nursery? Or should I check the Garden Watchdog and look for a good etailer? Can you all recommend a seller I can trust?

Thanks.

TL

there are several - try davidsans maples (he is on this thread)