Gardening Myths B1, Superthrive and others...

I have come across some information, that to some seems controversial. I am not sure why this stirs up such deep-seated feelings, as if everyone needs to defend their methods of propagating and the best ways of getting plants started. It seems to me that all could benefit from the information that might be presented. As far as I am concerned, we do not all have to agree on things, but share our knowledge and findings and try what seems appealing, and if something is working well, then just stick to it, right? This seems to be the purpose of forums, and why we have them, but to share and learn from each other's experience and findings.

B1 ~ Help, hurt, or any results? Here are some links that I have found...what has been your experience with B1 or other "starter" products? (Not starter fertilizers, as they can be quite different)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1216/is_n5v188/ai_12252342/
http://www.bananas.org/f312/vitamin-b-1-myth-8774.html
http://louisvillebonsai.org/post/2009/07/Vitamin-B.aspx
http://www.nevadagardens.com/starnursery/page01/tip%201027.htm
http://coopext.colostate.edu/4dmg/Garden/beware.htm


Superthrive ~ Only one drop per gallon...so they say..did it work for you? Now it does contain B1 as well....maybe that was to entice the users of B1 for a starter....

http://www.superthrive.com
http://www.maibanbonsai.com/myexperienceusingsuperthrive.aspx
http://www.city-data.com/forum/garden/764336-superthrive.html

Oh, and what about Spray-N-Grow? Does that work for you??

http://www.spray-n-grow.com
http://answers.qvc.com/answers/1689/product/M7459/questions.htm?expandquestion=92621

Also, if we can get enough people interested, we could get an experiment going. A double-blind study and then post the results in a month or two, since this is the prime growing season. Whaddya' think?

I would love to see some double blind tests, using any growing product. I will try to set up one using Superthrive (I just bought some). Also another using some (expensive :-( ) powder that I bought last year that didn't seem to work, but I want to try it again to double check. Let you know what that product name is after I check.

It's funny when I read the posts...some have very strong opinions, but what matters is the results, and are they good for the plants, and are they good for us, or will they be harmful to either?

I was looking through an old book I picked up in the library the other day, entiltled, "Companion Plants and how to use them" by Helen Philbrick and Richard Gregg, which was published by the Devin-Adair Company in Old Grenwich, Conn in 1966. They have a chapter on Growth Regulators/ Auxins. They talk about how using various chemicals, both synthetic and organic, may strikingly upset the harmonious growth of the plant. These people belong to the Byo-Dynamic school of thought within the organic gardening movement, founded in 1924 by Rudolf Steiner, an occult philosopher and scientist.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the use of plant hormones, vitamins, growth regulators/stimulants in relationship to the natural world?

I didn't think of hormones and vitamins as anything but "organic" until I read your post. Of course, they aren't really, any more than taking steroids are necessarily natural or good for the human body. I'm not strictly an organic gardener, although I do try to avoid pesticides/herbicides. As you said, my main concern is whether the product is good for the plant, and not harmful to others. An interesting discussion point, though... how do we define what is good for the plant?

Hi, evelyn,

About superthrive~~In the past couple of years the 'vitamin-acid-hormone' product for plants has been hashed out in depth here on DG too. There were some interesting observations and you may want to look them up. Some folks did try to do comparison testing and reported their results.

If you do a search of the forums for 'superthrive' or check the 'tags' you will find some of the discussions. (I can't get my search engine to work or i would link you to them). Here is one link at least: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/574156/

In general I think that Superthrive does have some effect. If my memory serves me correctly it was first developed prior to WW 2 in Asia and then brought to the states by Mr. Thomson (?) who spent time in Japan, and now resides in California (I think he must be about 97 years old now~~maybe he uses Superthrive on himself?)

I have used it from time to time but I haven't done a double blind test myself.

'Messenger' was another product that came under a good bit of discussion and gardeners did see a difference when using that. Megagrow was another.

I'll be interested to find out if there has been any news on this. t.

Messenger is no longer being made, as the company went out of business. (I wonder why...?)

They sold the Messenger product to another company, it's now sold as Employ http://www.gardeningthings.com/organic-natural-fertilizers-biostimulants-c-67/employ-reg-plant-health-promoter-2oz-package-p-183

Thank you. Have you read the warnings regarding this product? So far, it is not licensed to be sold to the state of CA. CA is very careful about regulating ag products. We have more regulations and restrictions than most states.

Well, Messenger aka Employ is $29.95 for 2 oz. In my mind Evelyn I believe the Superthrive at $10 for 4 oz is a better buy since I can tell myself that it is doing my plants good.

E., In your Post #7789974 are you referring to Messenger or Superthrive?

Have not read any 'warnings' and not surprised to hear about CA since they like to be especially protective of their agriculture. Did see that the 'new' Messenger' was not yet OKed for sale in CA , though.

I can't remember from my research if Messenger and Superthrive do the same things or not~~but I think they have different chemical make-up and uses. Will have to check on that again.

I do remember that to get the results intended you have to follow the directions exactly (not over do with the doses and stick to the timing), according to the research, that is. 'Who' did the research, I don't know. (-:

Tasbasco, I never used them for the same reasons. I used the Superthrive as stated, for shock in transplanting, and I never really used Messenger on a regular basis because I never remembered it even tho I have it, but I think it has other properties than the ST and would use it more for a sickly looking plant.

When I remembered that is.

One thing I do dose some sickly plants with is a hydrogen peroxide/H2O solution (1 to 20). Helps get oxygen to the roots for quick recovery for the plants (if they have been neglected or over-watered like I seem to do).

LOL, me to. On both. Peroxide is great.


Edited to add:

If I think of it, I spray it with Messenger. I know on another thread there was a discussion as to whether or not it did any good to spray the leaves with anything. i.e. foliar spraying with fertilizers etc. Don't think we ended up with an agreement.

This message was edited May 15, 2010 2:36 PM

tabasco ~ I was referring to Messenger/Employ. I read the label online, of course, since I cannot see it in person, as it is not licensed for use in CA. There may be a good reason for not approving it. I just read how a person needs to dress before using it, and other precautions and warnings. Those reasons would discourage me from buying it. Before reading the label, I was looking forward to trying it, as I have heard such nice results from users of the product.

There are no warnings on the Superthrive other than using at the correct dilution, considering that it contains a growth regulator, and may harm the plants if used incorrectly.

I am rethinking this, however, after reading the statement in the aforementioned book. Still, I have used it for many years, at one drop a gallon with no obvious harm to the plants, but I have not conducted a comparison test myself. I learned of using it when working in the nursery business, as having it to be used on incoming bare root trees and shrubs (including roses).



This message was edited May 16, 2010 9:52 AM

I used to order Messenger every summer and I loved it. My roses always did better with it and on some the leaves got huge! Well I had one pack leftover from last summer so I sprayed it on my roses when they first started to leaf out this spring and the results were all the leaves were twice as big and very healthy looking. I had forgot that its best to use when the plant is actively growing. Some of the leaves are as big as my hand!

Now I try to go online and order some and they have closed!!! I wonder why? I had great success with mine. I now find that another site is supposedly selling it but changed the name but I'm afraid to order because it looks like they added some ingredients to it. I know the old stuff worked best so I'm afraid to try anything repackaged.

This message was edited May 16, 2010 2:12 AM

wnddyer ~ Do you know what ingredients that they added? Also, did the Messenger have the same heavy precautions the the new Employ has on its label?

The labels I've seen for Messenger didn't have the same warnings--but the little packets of Messenger were intended only for home gardeners, and the Employ on that website that I linked to is a much larger container and lists all sorts of agricultural uses, so the additional precautions may be there primarily for people who are using it in agriculture and are being exposed to much higher amounts of the product. I've never seen a label from larger Messenger pkgs that would have been used in agriculture. As far as ingredients, the only thing they actually tell you about on the label is the active Harpin protein--Messenger had it at 3% and Employ is only 1%. The rest are "inert" ingredients, which means they couldn't have added any fertilizer, pesticide, etc ingredients because they would have had to list those as actives, but there's no way to know what the rest of it is. Some companies will disclose at least some of those other ingredients if you call them because you're concerned about the safety, but some might not.

No I don't know the ingredients that they added but they talked about adding them. I read the original Messenger packet before and don't remember any warnings. I did find someone on eBay selling Messenger packets. They are a pack of 9 and it ought to last me for two years because you only spray once a month and I only use it for about four months. The price was 30 dollars total with shipping so I am happy to get the original stuff again.

When I get them in the mail I will let you know exact ingredients and if there are any warnings but I personally have only experienced great things with it. I also need to take some pics of my roses to show you how good they look.

Sounds good, but be careful and don't get any on your skin. Did you say that there is no warning label for this product?

Here's a Messenger label: http://www.cooperseeds.com/Label/MessengerH&G_US-label.pdf It doesn't have all the same warnings as the Employ label, but I think that may be because the little Messenger packets were only sold for home/garden use, and that larger pkg of Employ has a lot of agricultural uses too and the extra precautions may be for agricultural users who are going to come in contact with a lot more product. If you were able to track down the label for Messenger that was sold for agricultural applications label it may well be similar with the extra precautions. I don't know for sure though.

Thanks for the info, ecrane3

ecrane3, I hope they attach an eye dropper to the bottle. For $30 for 2 ounces they should. Wasn't that what it costs?

Yes...but the old Messenger packets that we all used to buy were .12 oz each, so the 2 oz package should have quite a few uses in it.

Messenger approx. 18 gallons in 2 oz. $30. That is assuming the dosage for Employ is the same as Messenger. (Employ 1%, Mess. 3%)

Superthrive, a drop to a gallon, $7 per 2 oz. or $10 for 4 oz. You calculate it.

My biggest complaint with Messenger was that the instructions said you had to use it within 4 hours. (or 3 wks for the pack) I never knew why, but that bugged me to the point that I worried about wasting it. So, I didn't use it much. Even mixing 1/4 tsp to qt.

wnddyer, you have convinced me to use it again soon. I still have some of the original packets.

Messenger approx. 18 gallons in 2 oz. $30. That is assuming the dosage for Employ is the same as Messenger. (Employ 1%, Mess. 3%)

Superthrive, a drop to a gallon, $7 per 2 oz. or $10 for 4 oz. You calculate it.

My biggest complaint with Messenger was that the instructions said you had to use it within 4 hours. (or 3 wks for the pack) I never knew why, but that bugged me to the point that I worried about wasting it. So, I didn't use it much. Even mixing 1/4 tsp to qt.

wnddyer, you have convinced me to use it again soon. I still have some of the original packets.

However, I still maintain that the 2 products have totally different uses. At least for me.

I agree--I also use them for different things. I look at Superthrive as something to help newly transplanted things which need help getting their roots going & avoiding transplant shock, and I look at Messenger/Employ as something to use on things that are more established to help them grow bigger & nicer.

Totally agree. Have made a promise to myself to use the messenger sometime this week. Thanks everyone for a good discussion.

I just cleaned out my garden cabinet in the garage and found my Superthrive and Messenger from last year so will have to give it a Go.

Even though they're old, they still might be viable. And if not, what's too lose? Right?

Thanks for the thread topic, E., it jolted me into action!

And thanks, everyone for participating, as it is always interesting to see what products can help us in our efforts to obtain better results, and at the same time, not be harmful to us or the natural world around us.

If anyone has the time in their busy schedule if they could just maybe use one or two of the products on some plants and not others....just to see what results are produced, as sometimes people might just use something one time, and the weather or other factors might skew the results when reporting on their findings. I think I will do this On "Serenade" as well, since I have never used this product before, and I anticipate fungal problems due to so much late rain on my tomatoes. I hate to bring in another chemical this late in the game, but if anyone has used it, does it work?

I do not usually use any fungicides as a rule, but since we had so much moisture late in the season, with more predicted in a few days, possibly tonight, I don't want to end up with nothing after all the patience it took to raise these babies from seed. I usually just buy from a nursery, but this year I wanted to see what I could grow from seed. It certainly passed the winter hours, as well as the winter-like conditions in spring. I plan to start more seeds, after I have the garden in order...which may be in fall, with the late start due to the strange weather...

This message was edited May 19, 2010 9:48 PM

I am so happy! My 9 packets of 0.12oz of Messenger arrived! Now I know some have said they are going to start using theirs now, but the only problem is if you didn't use it when the leaves on your roses/plants started to leaf out, you might not see the best results. You will still get good results on new blooms if you spray them on the whole plant and especially on anything actively growing like a small bud or new leaves/canes growing on roses. Also you are supposed to use it once a month (it actually says every 3 weeks) so if you use it only once, you may not see the best results if you were to use it every month.
Also if you use the whole packet once you open it, the 0.12oz only makes one gallon. That's barely enough to cover all my roses so it ought to be easy for whoever uses it to use the whole gallon anyway, but if you don't want to, as long as you seal the packet shut tight, you can keep it for about 4 weeks. Also once you do mix it with water, it says to use it up within 4 hours, and to re-apply if it rains within 30 minutes of spraying it so I wouldn't spray if it looks like it's going to rain that day. It also says "Reseal opened packets to minimize exposure to air and moisture. Use opened packets within 3 weeks."

Also this is not something that feeds your roses! If you use this you still need to add something to feed your roses with. You can also mix your Messenger with some powdered plant food. I use miracle grow for roses. I remember reading a long time ago if you do use some plant food to mix the Messenger first with water, then add the powdered plant food. I don't know why this is, I just remember reading it.

Another question, what is Superthrive supposed to do? I have read conflicting reports that most seem to say it really doesn't work. I know on this page I've read it's good for newly planted roses. I have just recently transplanted an own root rose (Distant Drums) that was not doing well at all. I bought it last year from an online site and they were on sale since it was I believe near the end of June when I bought it? Anyway, it was not a good time to plant roses in the middle of summer, and the plant was very tiny. I forgot about it over the winter and it was completely covered with leaves etc. When I cleaned my garden out this spring, I saw the little plant and tried to care for it. It produced one leaf and then the leaf dried up. It has three little twigs sticking out of the ground now, but they are still green. I dug it up in a huge rootball and transplanted it to a shadier spot (planted there to protect it from the harsh sun). I am hoping the reason it didn't grow was there was a huge rock under it in the ground, so maybe it was blocking the roots. Anyway, sorry to go on and on, but it's in a new location now and I am wondering if Superthrive would help it.

I don't know if anything can save tht rose. It sounds sad. However, I would say if anything can it would be ST. If you have it use it. Don't know if I would go out and buy it just for that rose, but then you would have it for if you ever need it again.

wnddyer ~ Did you try to revive your rose with Superthrive?

Would a product like Messenger be effective for attempting a revival of a plant that is ailing, or is it a preventative measure to be taken early in the season?

I lost 3 'Blanc Double de Coubert' last year...do not know why they did not survive, but I did get them on a clearance from a mail-order nursery with a bad rep...not telling - I should have known better...I did not even think to use ST on them..LOL!

I have been using Superthrive for the past few weeks, and I have to say that Everything that I have put in the ground is doing wonderfully. Even the clearance items! Could be a coincidince, but I'm starting to wonder...

avianut ~ If it works, and does not harm them, then best to continue with it, right?

Well, folks...I actually got some Messenger in early June, as I was fearful of so many tomatoes going bad with fungus. Sure enough, I only used it twice, two weeks apart, and then the weather turned warm and so I am thinking I don't need to use it anymore until next year, since it is no longer available. So far all the leaves look really great, much better than they ever have before. They are still too small for fruiting as they were planted so late due to the wet and cold weather so much throughout all of spring. I also used the peroxide as well, just to make sure.

So much for "double blind"...I had enough seedlings to do a test, but as usual, got so busy I did not even think of it until it was too late...I suppose that really I did not want to sacrifice any to disease even for the sake of experimenting, especially since the product (Messenger) is no longer available.

I use a mixture of Superthrive and liquid kelp on most transplanting, if I have time and if I remember...LOL! ☺

Evelyn

evelyn, not to sure what you are doing or mean to do with a "double blind".

Are you meaning to compare Messenger and Superthrive? If that is it, I don't know what you are comparing since they are used for different things. At least by me they are.

I use Superthrive for transplanting to releave the shock. The Messenger I use for plants that really aren't "feeling" well.

I suppose you could use them for the same thing. For instance I had a real traumatic thing happen to one of my favorite plants yesterday. I hadn't noticed the plant wasn't on the deck railing but Bob came up carrying it. It had fallen off, about a 8 or 9 foot drop. You could tell it had landed on it's head. A beautiful red Calibrochoa.

A lot of broken branches etc. So, I cleaned it up the best I could, gave it a drink of Superthrive, and then sprayed it with Messenger. Within an hour it was looking much better. Don't know if either of them helped, or which one. I really don't care since it is looking better.

Where did you get your Messenger? I bought some in a coop a few years ago and haven't used much. I have used it in trades and the people were really happy to get it.

Tabasco, what do you know about MegaGro? I have some sitting here, been thinking of using it. I bought it a year or 2 ago but have never tried it.

No, Jeannete, I did not mean to do it with one against the other. What I meant was that to use nothing on the ones in comparison as to using the product. Then I could tell if they were actually making a difference. Sometimes if you do not use a product they will do fine anyway.

In that case it was the Messenger as I was fearful of fungus or some kind of blight on the tomatoes. They looked really great and I am glad that I used it. When I read the label, it did mention for residents of CA to specifically use them on tomatoes. So even though they would have not shipped them to CA residents, it was still legal for limited usage in CA, as well it was considered to be safe, which was my main concern. I feel lucky to have read that someone got them on ebay, so I just got one set of packets. Now they are no longer available at all, so I will save the rest for next year as I used 3 packets this time, 14 days apart.

Do you use your Messenger with a hose end sprayer evelyn? Does it go fast that way? I just use mine in a spray bottle and only on plants I think really need it even tho I think all plants benefit from it.

Jeanette ~ No, I just used a watering can and sprinkled the foliage. I don't have that many sprayers...the main one I use has deer repellant in it. If I don't use that I won't have any plants outside of my fenced garden. I just saw a deer out the window as I was typing this...yes they are with us always...