Hoshi no flamenco, red clem discussion deepens

hoshi no flamenco is blooming. i should say has one bloom. i was lucky enough to be able to get two of these clems this spring. they were not liners but not huge. one promptly took a rest and has not been seen again. the other grew and never looked back. it is now about 5 feet of vine, two stems. tthe two plant i got are about 3 feet apart and sun, soil, sun, care etc are identical. one flower bud was pinched off by me as it was really deformed as first flowers often are. the other bloom opened a few days ago. this photo is pretty true to color. it is a red, deep red. with magenta undertone and a very velvety texture to the sepals.

the stamens and anthers are interesting, almost two levels with the anthers lower than the stamens. very pretty. there are not other flower buds right now. if non develop i will prune back the plant in a few days. at that time i am going to dig up the other root that did not grow and pot it up and see if i can get it to respond.

comments on the color etc? for a first bloom i am pretty pleased. they will be larger next year also i am sure.

this shot may show the hoshi better.

another new red in my garden is sir trevor lawrence. it is blooming well, for a first year texensis especially. i love this one and know if will be very floriferous next year. it is blooming near juuli and rooguchi and if they all three make an appearance together next year i will be very happy.
by the way juuli is still blooming. that clem is amazing.it is a blue so will not post it here on the red thread.

we do not have a huge amount of blooming clems right now, but on the red side there are random blooms on ville de lyon, rouge cardinal, ashva. not year a vigorous second bloom period, just some random ones. also blooming (non red) are paul farges (still), and now blooming are harry smith intricata, my angel, a young blue angel, mongolian gold, tangutica, pamela recta still in bloom, viola, dominika. not a lot of huge action. it is that in between where the plants get fed, rested, nipped and tucked if they were not more agressively pruned (too late in season to do that now for hard winter zones)

what red clems are in bloom now in your garden?

Guru, it's hard to believe that hoshi could get any larger next year. That is a real beauty. It looks just like velvet. I can't top that, but to keep this "red" discussion going, I hesitantly posted what is supposed to be Niobe. Hopefully it is. It was planted as a young liner this spring along with Candida. Both had one or two blooms in May and I pruned them. Now, both have lots of larger blooms. Most of my liners were put in one-gal pots, but not these. You've certainly made me a believer in pruning. I guess you could say the proof is in the pruning.
(If this is not Niobe, please let me know. It doesn't look like Donahue's photo of Niobe in their pamphlet--maybe because it's still young.)

Sharkey, are you having the same experience I have that the liner plants are performing as well or better than the larger ones planted this spring? You and I are in similar climates, and I think many of our northern counterparts would be surprised/impressed with the obvious growth and blooms you are getting from your liners in their first season.

sharkey that is indeed niobe. the re-curve of the sepals, general coloring and the way the bloom matures into almost a very subtle bi color are trademarks of this clem.
it is one of my favorites. i have them out in front of my house and used to let them sprawl on the boxwood hedges. this year i put in bigger (and taller) supports for them , but i did find when they were sprawling the blooms lasted longer...i think they liked it better. however, i am going to keep them on the supports for another year to see if i can retain any of the old vines this year thru the winter. i generally have had to treat them as a p3 due to winter damage, we shall see if this works.

i love niobe. your is really pretty it has all the hallmarks of a real niobe, vs some of the one that are sold as niobe may be warsaw nike.

forgot another red is blooming now, texensis gravetye beauty.

BG, now that we both have quite a few clems, we need to compare notes more often. I think there are only a handful of us Southerners on this forum. I'd like to know if you have any planted on the west side that gets the worst of the sun from noon until sunset with no shade. That's where I'll be planting a few climbing roses and clems during the next couple of months. I haven't decided which ones to plant there.

As far as liners, I would still choose an SSV or Joy Creek vine before a liner in spite of the fact that I've had pretty good luck with my liners so far. I'm just now beginning to see how that second growth spurt after a severe pruning encourages more and larger blooms on those young plants. I even have an HF Young liner with more blooms about to open.

But, within the last few months, I planted two Rouge Cardinals and two VDL's at the same time. One of the RC's and one of the VDL's were a liner and the other two clems were SSV. When planted, my liners had more growth, as they had been in a one gal pot for about a month. The SSV's had been pruned back for shipping. In less than two wks, the SSV's were taller than mine. So, when given the choice, I would buy a mature plant any day. However, if I were buying a large quantity as you did, I couldn't afford to pay that much for each plant.

We both need to keep good records so that this time next year we will be able to really compare the two types of plants. I want to know more about which varieties are doing well for you in this horrible heat and humidity. One thing I've noticed is that at one time of day, a new bloom will look totally wilted. I will be tempted to snip it off, but if I leave it, later on that day it looks very perky. So, I know this heat is affecting these blooms.

I've got quite a few getting full sun ALL day, and they also receive glare off the pool for much of the day as well. They are taking a lot of heat with no protection from other plants, yet they are still holding up. We just put in the beds that sit in front of them, so the plants are not mature and offer no shade whatsoever to the base of the clems even. Below is a link to the clem section in my journal. I haven't updated where everything is planted yet, but all of the clems that are in that full sun situation are listed as "Clem Wall" under the "Location" section of the journal.

http://davesgarden.com/community/journals/vbc/BlissfulGarden/75672/name2/

Prince Charles is also there at the moment, and performing beautifully, but I plan to move him to a Pruning Group 3 location after he finished blooming.

WOW....these pictures are amazing. I use this forum as my inspiration each day. Just wanted you all to know I'm here but can't usually comment as I'm at work. I hope, one day, to be much more involved though !

kim

sharkey, keeping records is great. i do have the year, season and where purchased of all my clems. however, i have not diligently recorded each year's progress.i do have bloom charts i keep some years to look at probable bloom time. have not done that this year, usually i do it every other year. but it is useful to me as a reference each year.

sharkey, blisssful.....some of this dialogue will be enhanced by definition of terms. what one of us means by vigorous is maybe not the other persons definition. for myself when comparing any liner to a larger plant i am talking about within the first season planted seeing 3 to 4 ft growth and multiple multiple blooms. this includes early pinch back.
i kind of rank the start of a plant as
1. dies back and rests completely, or shows tiny weak regrowth, for the season, future unknown
2. dies back, resumes growth moderately. with pinch back may have one or no blooms first year. usually one, but sometimes 2 stems.
3. does not die back completely, begins growing and can produce a few blooms first year even with pinch back.multiple stems
4. does not die back completely, begins growing and grows several feet with multiple blooms, multiple stems.

i have never had a liner be a stage 4 performer in first year. i have had liners in stages 1, 2 and not often stage 3 first year.
until last year i have never had a clem hit stage 4 the first year. granted my planting and care have improved, but the main variable was that i started buying from ssv last year.
when a clem dies back and takes a slower start i am not sure if 3 year vigor is equal to one that starts out better. personally i kind of doubt it. what i have found is that they way they start is the way they continue. i have many plants that took a few years to coax into moderate performance. many of there were local gallons or liners.
because i am really collecting, and i think you are both headed there too, i do buy liners and local plants which i appreciate the cost of, but go into with eyes wide open about start up time and vigor ranking.

hard to compare notes with each person having different definition of success, no?

CG, almost all of mine, even the liners, did not die back at all when I planted them. I did have a few that browned a few weeks later from the drought, but that was very sporadic and was my fault for not watering enough (I was scared I would drown them and went too far the other direction at first!). All except one has grown several feet and most have multiple stems. Some have not bloomed at all, but a great number of these are listed as early bloomers that should have performed before I even purchased them... so it's a bit hard to tell in that regard. A few have only had 3 or 4 blooms, but many have had a decent show, like Prince Charles in the photos on the other thread. From Sharkey's photos, it looks like hers are performing better than mine, as her plants look quite lush for new liners (i.e., the Niobe above!) and full of blooms to me. I think the truest test for us is seeing which still perform well after they have not had a period of rest for winter. Louisiana and Florida will not experience the same type of winter that you guys up north have, and so our plants will probably not have much, if any, dormant period.

many clems need the dormant period to perform the best for years on end. many doubles and semi doubles need the completely dormant period also for the plant to have great and many blooms.
in your climate i have no experience, but i have heard forcing 3 bloom periods out of clems in your hotter zones without a dormant period can be very depleting to the clem and possibly clems do not live as long or end up as floriferous as possible. but i am noting here this is heresay to me, nothing i have seen quantified.

it is great that many climatic areas are represented on the forum, not just one certain area. and on another site there is a vast international representation, the UK of course, finland, holland, canada, japan and others.

i agree that is a nice looking niobe sharkey has posted.
i can tell you guys both that my first few year or two in clems i was so inexperienced, even tho i had the chalk hill instructions, and had met mary toomey and heard her lecture and had her encyclopedia (which is still a great resource for me)...your results are surpassing anything i got out of my clems in those years. i think even my price charles which is about 8 years old and extremely vigorous, probably had one stem and a handful of blooms for 3 years maybe. i can't even remember how i kept motivated in the early years, except combing thru mary's book, as no one i knew grew clems, i was getting really slow results and somehow loved them enough to keep at it! putting a lot of plants in , if one can handle it and afford it , is the best, then you have winners along with your problem ones and you can see the potential.

BG, I clicked your link and I'm amazed at what you have done with your records. I set up an Excel spreadsheet a few months ago where I keep up with clem, date and place of purchase, attributes, where planted, and so forth, but I should have used the DG resource instead. Good job! I can tell you are a very organized person. I love the way you are including a photo as they bloom for you.

Are your dark colored ones in full sun as well? Those are the ones that tend to go limp during the heat here during the day. That's encouraging to hear that yours are doing well in this weather. I won't worry quite as much about planting mine on the west side now.

I love your 1 thru 4 ranking system, Guru. Since we're on that subject, here is a photo of one of my liners that are still in one-gallon pots. These were purchased first week of June at Lowe's and I completely trimmed them back. As you can see they are all about 4 ft. tall now and since this photo was taken on July 30, most now have blooms. I would not have let them bloom had I not already pruned them severely one time. This is one of my favorites, VDL. Some were not identified, or I feared mis-tagged, so another reason to let them bloom.

Guru, do you only use this ranking if they are planted in the ground, or could we rank these while they are still in the pots? Some have multiple stems and some have one. But, overall, they are very happy little plants right now. Hopefully, this fall some of them will have a home in the ground.

BG, you are right about testing this out this winter. We had an unusually cold winter last yr in my opinion and I'm ready for another one after this horrible summer weather we've had. As I said before, I think we will both know more this time next year about our little clem experiment. But, I'm a positive thinker and an optimist, so I just know we are both going to be successful overall!!

sharkey they look great. no harm in lettting them bloom just take off half to 2/3 of the plant after blooming. i don't know why the ranking wouldn't work for pot or ground. or you can give them a ranking while in pot and another after they transition to ground. some plants do not transition well and they all need to be pruned again when moved.
the ranking would not be consistent if some were not pruned when planted or moved and some were.
the other thing we are not consistent on is what is the definition of a liner? or a gallon?
i consider a liner a plant that comes in a 4 by 4 pot or smaller with little root.
a gallon can be a small root or if fully rooted out with in the pot a huge one.

we really should go by size of root vs those terms.
tiny: such as 2 inches long and wide. (hopefully no one is getting 1 inchers?)
small: 4 inches wide and at least that long.
medium: 6 inches wide and at least that long
large: 8 inches wide and 10 to 12 inches long

does this make sense? what adjustments would you make to these guidelines if you like the idea?

The photo I posted are those that Lowe's sells and the pots they came in were 4" tall and almost 4" wide. I then put them in what the nursery calls a one-gallon pot. I actually used all the empty pots I could find that had perennials or annuals in them at time of purchase, but all but a few were one gallon. I've always thought of a gallon of milk when I think of a gallon, and was surprised when nurseries told me these were one-gallon pots.
Therefore, I guess my liners would be classified as small according to your rating system. There are also bareroots, which I'm experimenting with as well. And, don't forget the embryo size plants we both received this year--our Parasols. Hopefully, this is rare to receive something this small.

Sharkey I frgot about the embryos
they were like 1 inch roots I would say (call them super tiny)
mine are still very small , have been pinched twice. Smallest I have ever
worked with except wild seedlngs I have dug up and grown out in pots frm my own plants.

Sharkey the labeling thing is a p touch labeling machne with 3/8 inch tape to apply to
metal marker such as the ones from eon(there is a linknfrm ssv site)

I was still using sharpies and they looked bad and were fading sook fast.
The p touch are said to last many many years.
I am using black background with white letters andnjust applying it to the marker
whether the sharpie has faded on not on that marker.
if any sharpie script is showing it will soon fade. I am also adding p1 p2 or p3 to the label in the event
I ever had to tell someone what to do as to pruning. I always do my own, but if I ever let someone help with this it would be easier to train them.

CG, where did you get your p touch? Are they ridiculously expensive?

no , i googled p touch and right from the company got a reconditioned basic unit for like 9.99. it took a few minutes to set up and works GREAT. re the tape, i got 2 rolls and have not yet figured out how many labels that will make. wasted a few inches figuring it out.
you have to set the font size,margin and a couple of things that first seemed complicated when it came yesterday, but first thing this morning with a double espresso, it all fell into place. i think the "reconditioned model" is just a brand new older model, it does not have a scratch on it, the packaging on it etc was brand new.

it is handheld, and will be easy to use outside. or i may make them inside when watching tv from my master list (queen of multitasking here) and then outside just cut them , slip off the back, which is slit for easy removal. (many clem names are too long for the lable, as i went for the largest size font i e easy to read,so outside just cut the tape and apply them as one or two lines as length of of name indicates. much easier than i thought. i bought it all on line from ptouch v going to office supply. not sure you can get the "reconditioned" ones at the stores. probably not.

very glad i took this step. on a few weeks when all have readable labels and not more fading ....that will be great.

usually when i order a clem i make a metal marker and enter the clem on my master spreadhseet as to what vendor , season etc.. then i do not have to check and see what i have ordered, and the markers are all ready when the shipment arrives. for the clems out of stock or some how not shipped (rarely with my chosen vendors) i can use the markers and not received notation on my spreadsheets to give me my "still looking for list". for me this helps me keep organized and i can see at a glance ones i was expecting to get an did not. also if i finally give up on a clem and pronounce it RIP(rest in peace) on my spreadsheet, i bring the marker inside and those markers are part of the "still looking for or need to replace list" if the RIP one was my only one of the cultivar. if i have multiples as i do of many of the clems in my collection, i usually do not replace the rip one. if it is a clem for that or some other reason i do not want to replace, (for instance i never want to see another lemon chiffon after going thru 3 and all RIP) i may recycle the metal marker or put in with the new markers to be reused. i rarely throw out recycle one out unless it is very very bent.

whew. hope this is of interest info, if not forgive and feel free to tell me so.

I think there are different strengths of adhesives of tape as well. Extra strong won't come off after it has settled in, even if you want it to.I have had my taped markers for 3 years. I don't know long term.............

I bought my markers in the co op twice. It was very well run and last time there were colored markers available.

I also bought quite a few colored markers from the co op this year. That's the first time I even realized there was a co op here. DG has so many different areas that it's hard to be familiar with all of them. I'd like to have the clear labels with black letters to go on the colored labels. I've been using a paint pen this year, which I hope will last longer than the sharpie I used last year which faded.

Hate to continue off topic, and hope no one minds. I have a PTouch that I love. My model will hook up to my computer as well for more custom labels (fonts, graphics, etc) I use the extra strength adhesive labels and they work awesome. There is actually a DG thread on labeling plants that was really fun and informative.
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/773126/

I have gotten my markers from a couple of different sources. I do not like the aluminum, and I do like the zinc. The aluminum is too flexible and the label part actually fell off the stake! LOL That sort of defeats the purpose! The zinc markers have held up extremely well in my harsh z4 weather, and still look brand new after 2 yrs.
I painted the zinc with black or hunter green paint and used my PTouch to make labels on clear label with white lettering. The dark color of the stake/marker blends into the shadows and foliage, and yet the white printing is very visible. I found the silvery zinc to stick out like a sore thumb in garden photos, etc and wanted a labeling system that was a bit more natural looking and less obtrusive.

I'm too lazy to paint the labels, though that sounds like a great idea, Jennie! I just go with the zinc markets, slap on a clear label with black print and stick it in the dirt. If it shows up in photos, well... then people just know I'm a fanatic about knowing my plant names! =P

I gotcha, Bliss. They remind me too much of cemetery markers! I Was using the silver PTouch tape on them as the garden marker was not holding up well for me. LOL There were a lot of factors added to th epoor performance of the garden making pen: I so wanted the cottage garden look and feel; I live in a house that is nearly 100; and everything is sort of shabby chic (more shabby then chic!!) and old here, so the silvery just didn't fit well. The sharp silver just looked way too industrial and modern for me. It was sort of a revelation when I went,"Doh! You could paint them Jen!" I still have some of the silver, but am phasing them out as I go.
One thing I have added to my plan is to paint them stakes when I get them, whether I am ready to use them yet or not. then they are ready to go when I am ready to slap a label on.

That looks very nice Jennie. I wonder how you get the white letters. Is it b/c you buy black tape?

This message was edited Aug 8, 2009 6:13 PM

wow ,i didn't see diffferent strengths of tape when i bought mine. i will keep researching before i buy more tape while i use what i have already bought.
i can not imagine painting the labels first, but i bet it looks good.


sounds like we have a lot of well labeled gardens represented here on the forum.

I am very annoyed when I can't remember the name of a plant, so this helps. Also helpful with those bulbs that disappear for long periods. Don't you just need to fill an empty spot?
CG, I realize you also do black with white letters. Is there a special setting on P touch?

i am doing black tape with white letters, which is a basic ptouch selection. i am not using clear as some of my labels still have visible markings from the sharpies that have not faded yet. the black is allowing me to apply the tape now. any visible areas of leftover sharpie markings will disappear quickly , as i have found out over and over which is why i am switching to ptouch!

love the painted ideas, but not gonna happen here.

I got the best deal on eBay. that said, there was a co-op that used group buying for a better price. I would have loved to take part in that one! I hope the Co-op forum works out the kinks and gets back on track soon. Maybe they will run another garden marker or label co-op soon.

banana, no the tape i bought said 3/8th inch black with white and when the tape is compressed it makes white lettering. i think the letter color is built into the layers of the tape itself.
i chose this combo due to faded and not so faded sharpie markings on the metal labels, but i am finding it very easy to read. so i will stay with this tape selection. i like it a lot.

Yes, that is an advantage.Good to know. I have ripped off labels but the new clear tape doesn't cover well.