I am admitting defeat - I cannot dig an eighteen inch hole. I've been working on one for 2 days and I'm still not there. Husband is off doing his thing and I was determined to do this. Somewhere around 7/8 inches, I ran into solid clay - it might as well be sandstone. I'be been scraping it off 1/8 inch at a time. The deeper I get, the harder it is to get it out of the hole. By the time I get it to the top of the hole, I've maybe a teaspoon left on the spade. I'm asking, "Is there a secret that I'm not aware of?" Of course the mosquitoes don't help - I spend half my time swatting and scratching.
18 inch holes
dathen, i have a big confession, alto i think i mention this frequently. i have a helper and digging holes is something a few years ago i realized i was lame at. i am no wimp in the garden, i can work for hours and i mix all my own soil, do my planting, pruning of clems, shrubs, and small trees... fertilizing. etc ...load after load of soil, compost, trimmings. i work hard. but i can not dig my 18 inch holes. so this is job one for any helper here. this year i have new one.
a good hole is essential for a long lived good clem. esp in our clay.
i know some use a post hole digger, or wait till the ground is wet (or pre saturate the ground before digging). my tulip bulb auger chopped up enough soil that someone could use it, then remove the soil it loosened, and do it again and again and again.
when janet was here with her garden club cronies i know they mentioned the perfectly cylindrical 12 by 18 inch holes my helper digs. usually without the post hole digger. i am sorry i do not know the technique or how important the type and sharpness of shovel is....hubbie's shovels are old and he uses one of my hubbies, not my long handled but small shovel that i use for everything i do.
wish i could help more, the post hole digger is not something i can use due to the length of the poles and strength it takes.
i am looking on line at augers for tree planting and a large, good one is not that costly. a garden club could get one and share it around on a schedule. wish i had other advice and maybe others do. i know i enjoy planting i do for plants other than clems in smaller holes much more in wet soil, but i think the 18 inch hole is a bigger issue than that involving tools, soil, strength , technique and experience/practice.
i use my helper to get holes and holes ahead. i do not mind a hole being there empty for months and months, then i have them when i need them. good luck.
Thanks, Guru. I've been gardening for years and have never gone deep enough to hit clay like this before. Most of my gardens are raised beds or I've added truck loads of top soil on before planting. I've alway done all my work up until a couple of years ago...the last two years I've hired a college girl to help keep up with the weeds a little. This year I thought I could do it myself - and I was - until I started planting clems. I had no idea all that clay was down there - or that it would be that hard to cut through. I shall get there eventually, but if you come up with an easier solution, please let me know :)
Thanks, Dathen
Edited to say: My husband did mention that he looked for an auger-like hand tool at out hardware store (they carry all sorts of gardening supplies) and they were out of them. Maybe that will be an option.
This message was edited Jul 25, 2009 5:12 PM
Dathen, are you using the type of shovel shown in the link or are you using a small hand tool?
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1340246&cp=2568443.2568444.2598674.2601435.2602648&cid=PPC%3A4510515
JuliaJayne: I've tried different ones. I have one about the size of a hand tool, but with a longer handle - one about like the one in the picture - and husband bought me one about 1/2 to 3/4 that size. I think the biggest problem is that once I hit clay and can no longer get my foot on the tool for pressure, I can't cut through the clay. So I end up scrapeing (?) off this little bit at a time. And then of course, it takes forever to lift it out of the hole....I need to come up with some kind of scoop for that part, I think.
Your clay sounds awful. Does it help to dump water into the hole to soften the clay?
It is awful - it is compact and very solid. I have no idea how tree roots could work their way through it. Now I'm starting to wonder if it could be the reason some of my plants don't do well - the ones with longer roots.
Not sure if water helps. Its been raining off and on for a couple of days and I'm been working in between the showers/storms. Its funny, but it doesn't seem to have affected the clay at all - it still looks hard, compacted and dry. You'd think that it would at least be sticky. I'll check that out tomorrow by pouring some water in the hole that is now about at 16". The other hole is only at the level where the clay starts.
Do you not have clay soil where you live? What's it like when you get down 6/7 inches?
I have about 8-10 inches of good soil, then the clay starts. If it's moist, I don't have a problem. There is an underground spring around here which helps keep the clay moist. When it's at the surface and gets dry, it's almost as hard as rock.
Trying filling up the hole with water. If it drains fast, fill it up again. Let it sit for a day and try digging again.
Dathen, I definitely have the same problem here. We may have sandy beaches, but inland there is a lot of clay. It's been a battle ever since I started making flower beds last spring. Our clay is hard as concrete after you dig down only a couple of inches. That's why my husband has to dig the clem holes for me. He uses a post hole digger, which I cannot use. I have tried. We have to immediately haul away the clay because if it rains on a pile, it becomes very difficult to get it up off the grass.
It does seem to help, though, if I soak the ground ahead of time where I want to dig a hole. I now have flowerbeds all the way down the back of the house and on one end. I started last year. I bought truckloads of soil amendments and mixed my own soil. He also bought a load of mushroom compost to mix a little in. (I think that's why my zinnias are taller than I.) I've been afraid to use the mushroom compost in my clem mixture, as I thought it might be too strong. I've been meaning to ask that in a thread.
About a month ago, I got upset about something and needed an outlet, so I thought I would dig my own holes, as I was expecting a shipment from SSV. It took me all afternoon with a shovel, digging an inch at a time and saying some pretty ugly things at the same time. I kept putting the yardstick in the hole to see how much farther. I stopped at 15 inches and was very proud of myself. When hubbie saw them, he said they weren't deep enough, so he got his hole digger and finished them (after he cleaned his fish.)
That's why I don't mix the soil I remove from the hole with amendments because it is hard clay. I just don't see how anything but weeds can grow in that.
So, don't give up. The clems are worth the effort. I wish I had an auger to attach to the drill as Guru mentioned.
the augers that attach to the common household drill are inexpensive. there are some larger garden augers that have to attach to a larger drill that look easy to use.
many types on line,just google garden augers, or tree planting augers.
but as i mentioned in my post, saturate the entire area, digging should be easier.
i will continue with my method, a helper.
dathan, when you start plan in in a better hole with better soil you will see the difference with your clems.
i am going to dig up some big, older clems that are regressing and do fresh holes with the gritty soil and divide if there are multiple crowns. not sure when i will start this, maybe one today. but by the fall there are several i am going to do this with.
What "gritty" substance did you finally decide on adding to the soil mixture? Is this poultry grit out of the question to mix in? DH just got me a large bag and I have a clem to plant today and other holes to prepare for SSV arrivals this week. Also, after the hard rains yesterday, the alfalfa pellets that were mixed in with the soil last week have really broken down. Can I just leave as they are and put a layer of mulch around the plant? I was out of mulch last week and did not get it done right after planting the clems. Also, regarding the 18 inches, I planted a Rhapsody Friday in a hole that was not 18 inches..ran into a gravelly area around 12-14 inches or so and just put it on top of that. Really great soil around it and loose roots that were easily spread out. Crown is below the surface and I thought I would probably be ok, thinking the roots would spread out, but now I am really concerned that I should just take it up today and put it somewhere else with a deeper hole. Since you are saying you are going to dig up established ones, is that due to depth, soil mixture or both?
OK, reporting on progress. You were all right. JuliaJayne, I am betting that your underground spring is making the clay a little easier. Guru, I did go out this morning and put about 3 inches of water in the hole. When it had almost drained, I tried digging again and was able to take out more with each shovel. It was also easier to get it out of the hole because it didn't roll off on the way up. Sharkey, I agree, I won't mix any of the clay back in with the mix that goes in the hole. Fortunately, my husband keeps a pile of topsoil under tarp down by his barn, so I'll mix that with compost, etc.
I'd be interested in knowing the type of gravel you use also Guru.
Thank you all so much. One hole dug and another more than half. I will, I will, finish planting these today. And they will grow and be beautiful and it will all be worthwhile.
I keep saying the same thing dathen. I remember planting all those different kinds of raspberries, blackberries, strawberries and grapes just a few short years ago. They are now, and were last summer as well, all huge and producing enough berries to freeze, make jam and to have neighbors pick! I have a few "established" clems that I put in as liners a few springs ago that were beautiful this year. I did not know how to pick them out, plant or take care of them and they were still pretty and I was so glad this spring that I had planted them (albeit I will probably move them to better spots). How much more beautiful all of our clems will be in the years to come since we now know (learning) how to pick the right plant for the right situation, planting depth, soil, fertilizer, water, etc....it's all about being a visionary and nurturer...but for now, I have to go dig up some siberian irises for my neighbor and decide where to plant my Savannah from SSV and prepare the holes for this week's arrivals! Have a beautiful day in the garden!! Nancy
i had some chipped gravel here and i also used crushed oyster shell (poulltry grit)
i still have some of each but am looking for bagged chipped gravel.
the oyster shell is great, i am just using more of it than i used to in the soil mixture. my clay is not as bad i don't think as some of what is described on the thread here. i use some of the soil out of the hole, removing large lumps and crushing some smaller lumpy textured soil. but am down to maybe 25% from the holes vs 50% i used to use approx.
i personally wouldn't remove a plant that was recently and well planted in a hole 12 to 15 inches deep......the ones i am going to dig up and replant are ones that have been in 6 to 8 years and this year did not perform as well as prior years. from the first one i dig out i will see what is going on and if there are multiple crowns to harvest, and then next year will be able to see if it did the [plant any good. 6 to 8 years ago i can't remember how deep my holes were, maybe 12 to 15 inches, but my soil mix was not as good for sure. i do so much top dressing however the plant has been well nourished form the top,,,,but we'll see how big the root is and what the gain is from this. if the plant had not regressed this year i probably wouldn't even consider it.
i have always planted in a pretty deep hole, but i am using better and better holes every year and better and better soil and my results are increasing, but there is no way i can or would replant every clem in the garden.
They are in the hole finally with new soil. I forgot do the 45 degree angle. Since the roots are HUGE, I'm not moving them to do that. Question: Should I cut them back to the ground - they are #2's?
Thanks!!!
When I was at the feed and seed store the other day where I've been buying crushed oyster shells, I asked if there was a difference between chicken grit and crushed oyster shells. They said "yes" and that they sell both. Debbie from SSV had told me that there was as well. They have ordered me a 50 lb bag, but I'm not sure if it will be crushed too fine. I should have bought the 3 lb bag and looked at it before I told her to order it. I guess this kind doesn't have the calcium in it. I'm not really sure if it matters which kind we use. I haven't sent off a soil sample to see what it needs. It should be here later this week, so I'll let you know.
the crushed oyster shell i get is sold in feed stores, for chickens and is just crushed oyster shell, not additives.
i think it is a matter of whether it is enfiched or plain , i but the plain.
i ususally buy 6 to 10 50 lb bags at once.
the alfalafa pellets i buy also are not augmented with vitamins or anything. i usually buy 4 to 6 of these.
keep them dry and use them within a month to 6 weeks.
dathan, so agree...do not re plant. most of my plants are not planted at the 45 degree angle, but i am doing that now since deb f explained the real reason to me. but i am not replanting anything.
real reason is not growth direction of the vines (toward the support) as had been posted on DG at one time. it is to have more root in a postion to produce more crowns. kind of like propagating itself within one plant. this gives more shoots, protection when one crown dies etc etc. if one is inclined (i am not) then more potential to divide the plant.
i just a huge healthy display am generally not interested at all in dividing that healthy display up.