What's this THING FROM OUTER SPACE?

I posted this last year, with no response. Its back and bigger than ever--I know somebody has to know what it is...Growing on a base root of my really huge (did I say HUGE) Willow Oak. Very concerned as this tree is a few yards from my front door and could take out the house if it wanted to (and has already taken out my windshield at least once). Just to the right of this pic is my house, just beyond the hose, so you can see my concern if this tree is diseased in any way. Its not exactly growing in a great spot!


This message was edited Jul 12, 2009 10:23 AM

This message was edited Jul 12, 2009 10:24 AM

Closer image...

Yote - just a guess -- but it just looks like some kind of fungus - but not the tree killing kind I don't think because I have them in the woods on the trees and the trees are healthy appearing. My concern has been --'if this is growing on the tree--is it a symptom that the tree is dead/sick.... not so much concern that the fungus is killing the tree. But, our storms here can be brutal and if the tree is near the house and you've had broken windshields, maybe you have to think about sacrificing the tree for other reasons. You don't want it squashing your car or coming down on your head! Is it providing valuable shade for your house?

yotedog:

A bit more context photos will be helpful in offering more opinions, but my first recommendation is to provide those images to a trusted certified arborist - someone who is used to protecting and conserving trees, not just one who is competent at removals. You should get an opinion on whether this tree ought to be immediately removed, or whether this is simply a nuisance itinerant organism to be ignored.

More than likely, you are seeing the fruiting bodies (mushrooms) of a decompositional fungus. As missingrosie mentions, this fungus may very well not be killing your tree, but it could be decomposing damaged/dead tissues of the roots or basal flare on that oak. It also could simply be decomposing your mulch. The proximity to the flare of the trunk to roots is worrisome, though.

If so, that's an indication of instability. Roots or basal flare that are rotting away means that there is some lack of attachment in that vicinity. Unstable or poorly attached trees near lives and property = situation which deserves immediate attention.

Show more vicinity pictures, and call that arborist soon.

I think this is the link to yotedog's previous posting. The image is not as good as the ones posted here.

I don't frequent the forum this was posted in last year - sorry about that. As many probably know, this forum is where the most views take place on trees/shrubs, so asking both places is helpful especially when the need is urgent.

Thanks everybody, and I agree that an aroborist needs to give me an educated opinion because, yes, if this tree goes, two houses go with it (plus a few cars..). Guess I knew that all along, but was just afraid to hear the bad news. Here's why---not having this tree changes my whole yard, both back and front. Take a look....

I thought I attached a link above - obviously not there. Trying again...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/801381/

Not that there is anything good about fungi and trees, and the prospects of them falling or being removed, but...

If the side of the tree that has the fungal growth is between the tree and the house, then that is where weak attachment may exist. It may be weakly supported from that side anyway, since the roots are probably growing laterally along the house walls/foundation.

That means...if it goes, it is more likely to fall AWAY from your house. Doesn't help anyone or anything else much, but the percentages are in your favor.

You'll need a new mantra: "Sun Garden. Sun Garden. Sun Garden."

Oh Yote - that is a beautiful tree. But if it was gone - you'd have another many years to plan around all that sun (of course the stump would be something to behold.)

I like the way you think, missingrose! Glass half full, not half empty. Had an aborist out today and he checked all the roots. Yep, the big root thats affected is dead, but he seconded what you said Viburnum about that not being a root that holds a lot of the tree up. He says all we can do is monitor, hope no more roots die, and do good preventative care such as pruning, fertilizing etc. Also suggests pruning the canopy to cut down on wind resistance and limbs falling on me and my house! I knew we would have to do that, but I'd feel better if there was something more we could do to save roots.

Its the typical story, though. It appears the last owner extended our drive in order to put an addition on the back of the house, and may have cut many of the roots on that side. Not sure--have to ask my neighbor who has lived across the street forever. She loves trees and is a gardener, so most certainly would have noticed. It makes sense, though, because the house was built in 1926, so I'm sure the tree wasn't there then (because its so close to the house). That would make it 83 years old at the oldest, not old for an Oak if given proper conditions.

Good thorough research and analysis, yote. You will be glad you invested in this.

I wish you luck with your gardening, and hope your wonderful tree last many years with few problems.

Ugh Oh, had another arborist out. He seconded that the root with the fungus is dead. Blew away the soil and checked all the roots on that side and they appear ok for the moment. Looks like we'll have to take the tree down at some point, especially if one more root dies. Aaarrggh! Not exactly a fun way to spends one's money, plus I like the tree. We've bonded during its illness! But like you said, Missingrose, its stump will be something to behold!

So here's my next decision--I've already spent a bunch getting it checked out, and I need to spend a whole lot more to have it pruned, fed etc. Anyone know how much longer it could live, with one major root already affected? It will take thousands of dollars to have it removed and, much as I love it, I can't see spending tons of money each year on it if it only, realistically, has less than, say, 10-15 years to go before we will have to remove it anyway.

This message was edited Jul 30, 2009 3:45 PM

Can you ask one or both of the arborists?
A thought Yote -- - those large trees make great big beams.... especially if it is straight. We had a big tree removed for free and from what the builder said - they gave money for it. I think it was $175.00. Some species bring more but ours was a white oak I think. Could you make some phone calls to folks that sell to the log home builders to find their sources. Or, maybe to an architect or two who may have had some experience trying to find large straight oak beams?? There may be a market for purchase. It may take some digging. I guess I'd start with the NET and google 'sell trees' 'tree buyers' 'purchase large wooden beams' etc.

Thats a great idea--and I had already thought that if the tree had to go, I wanted some of the wood just for historical/sentimental reasons. I doubt it is straight enough to use for beams, though. If you look in the photo, you can see how it leans away from the house because (the cause of all these problems) it was planted too close to the house. Both arborists basically said the tree is ok for now, but if one more root goes, they'd recommend immediate removal. Of course, they can't tell me how often a second root dies in a tree that is not growing in optimal conditions.

I see what you mean (the leaning) but beams can be 6 or 8 or 12 inches.. the machines that cut them can adjust --- all you need is a straight inside of the tree (I know I am not making sense) .... what I mean is that somewhere in that tree from top to bottom there may be potential for a straight beam. When cutting it 'out' there may be more wood on one side or the other --- but maybe it is possible. I am sure all trees must lean and twist in various ways --yet the beams can be extracted.

I know exactly what you mean--I guess I was thinking of really large, supporting beams such as would go across a large space. If we do have to take it down, I'll have to check into that.

We had to buy two white pine beams. My husband thinks 12 feet long --but I think they are 14 -- to span the kitchen. Each was $375.00 - 8 inch beams. (Pine - not hardwood) The price reflected (I guess) the difficulty in finding the beams -- it sure wasn't the quality of the wood. That is why I think with all the post and beam construction etc., it may be that your oak may pay a dividend. I sure would ask before I took it down ---just in case the folks purchasing want to take it down in their own way and load it same day, etc.

In my humble opinion, you've got less to worry about because 1.) It's just one root that's died and if none of the branches that root fed have died, it might have already compensated and 2.) It's an oak, which is very strong and long-lived.

Willow oaks have a more fibrous root system than other oak species and adapt to virtually impossible habitats, with no serious diseases or insect problems.

I would venture to say that if none of the main branches have died or look bad and no more fungus appears, you're in the clear to enjoy this tree, which will probably outlive all of us!

Well that's good to hear, Hoosier, except that it has dropped two large branches on that side--one, naturally, on my car. I'm still encouraged by what you said, though, and that definitely helps me decide what to do.

yote's tree problem will be with physics, not necessarily health.

That big old tree is well attached to the earth in only a few directions. The house, driveway, and walkways are each barriers to solidity, compared to a specimen of that size grown in an unencumbered situation. With roots compromised and some decomposition going on, that means "Pay attention."

It doesn't necessarily mean "Cut me down."

In a region such as central NC (where rain is often plentiful and big windy storms are an occasional hazard) a tree with a crown this large that has imbalanced root attachment should always have a watchful eye upon it.

Lately here in NC - as Yote can tell us ---even a tree with a balanced root attachment needs watching. Raleigh has been getting nailed pretty good with storms....while the storms mostly just tease us here a little to the west.

That's good advice, Viburnum--but when do you know its time to take it down? It will kill me to lose this beautiful tree, but I've got neighbors to consider. I guess I'm asking the impossible, but I'm hoping someone has been in this position before and can advise what happened to them.

Yotedog -- regardless of the direction you go on this tree, I applaud you for taking your neighbors into consideration. I am in a similar boat, but other side of the fence, err tree. My neighbor has a tree that has been causing problems for us (and our vehicles) for a year and a half now due to dropping dead limbs in our driveway (one denting and removing a 4" circular chip of paint on the roof). After discussing it with the neighbor 3 times w/no action, I took my insurance company's advice and sent them a certified letter requesting they have the tree pruned or removed due to the damage it's already caused as well as the potential for more damage with the remaining dead limbs dangling. The reason they suggest that is because if I have to file a claim on my homeowner's policy, they will handle getting reimbursement from the tree owner or their insurance company. I wish my neighbor's showed as much care in the situation as you in at least diagnosing the problem or having someone else look at it. Unfortunately, they don't.

In your research with this tree, have you discovered any ordinances or laws which dictate required maintenance or responsibility when it comes to these situations? I found one case that I cited in my letter to my neighbor which stated if the property owner is aware of the potential hazards and doesn't have the problem resolved (e.g. prune or remove tree), they are negligent and liable for damages. But it was only a reference to the case; no actual info "in the books", per se.

That's an interesting question, jij072174. I've got it from a good source that, yes, there are rules, and that you call the city inspection office to find out what the rules are. Not sure how you find that number--I'd look in the phone book under city government and if it isn't listed just pick another office and ask them for the number. That's generally how I find weird, hidden city numbers. I'd be interested in what you find out. One thought--is your neighbor being obstinate, or does he not have the money? Sometimes that might be the problem, but either way he should offer you some solution.

I guess this raises the bigger question of at what point does my tree become a known liablility.......? Hmmm....now that we are all looking out the window at all our trees that can fall on our neighbors' homes, I guess my answer is that I'll have to research that one.

She said they didn't have the money; however, they've had landscapers (doing other routine yard work for them, and not necessarily out of necessity due to their age or inability), house painters, and a slew of other home remodeling vehicles at their house since this discussion first took place 18 months ago. So I don't necessarily believe it's an issue of not having the money so much as prioritizing "nice to haves" for the "must do's" that pose a legitimate hazard to not only their own property but that of others. That's why I finally caved in and sent them the certified letter, per my homeowners insurance advice. Now, if something happens (and I'm speaking from a purely legal sense here), they have been notified, and there is a record of that, and they are liable for any damages that occur as a result of their negligence in tending to the tree. Otherwise, my insurance company said that normally what happens is if the tree comes down via an act of God (e.g. wind, storm, etc.), and damages my property, I would be responsible (or file w/my homeowners). If my tree were to come down onto their property and result in damage, they would be responsible (or file against their HO policy). But once you've made the tree owner aware via conversation followed by a certified letter that the tree is dying/dead/poses a hazard due to dead limbs, the responsibility rests with the property/tree owner. That's basically how my insurance company explained it to me.

Our neighborhood is also in Raleigh (city limits), and it's small quarter acre (all are the same on our street). We have a lot of large, mature trees, and the rest of us are good about monitoring them and making sure we have them pruned when needed so as not to cause a hazard to others. But this one neighbor just refuses to do anything with any of his trees, even barking at the power company when they came to prune them back from the power lines behind our homes.

What can I say ... you have one in every bunch right? LOL

Well, I'm sorry about your neighbor, but your story has made me more aware of the need to closely watch my trees. We've had at least one taken down already that was a clear hazard to a neighbor. Have to watch this one very closely. Plus, we really haven't had any big wind storms for several years (i.e. hurricanes etc), so when one hits, I suspect there are lots that we will find out had dead limbs etc.

Yotedog,
I lived near Winter Park FL for years and Winter Park had many streets lined with beautiful willow oaks. The trouble was, they all started dieing at about the same time, and I heard or read that willow oaks only live to 60 or 70 years old - so, ask you arborist that question too.
Paul

Paul
I've been to Winter Park and I remember the main street shopping district with the line of beautiful trees. Sorry to hear that they all succumbed to old age together! I remember being fascinated by those tiny chipmunks living in the trees. When sitting on one of the many benches, I'd feed them. The little things would actually sit in my hand and nibble food. I got a little paranoid when they got bossy and when one actually bit the hand (finger) that fed it. I reminded myself that cute still is wild and perhaps dangerous. I'd never seen anything so tiny and accessible and abundant as those little devils.

pbylrley--I've actually been told about 125 years, but even at that, an 80 year old tree is still getting up there. I'm going to research that and find out more, Thanks PS Another huge branch came down today--would have smashed my "new" windshield, but fortunately, I wasn't in the driveway at the time. Thank goodness.....

Edited to say, Ugh Oh--read this........And for anyone who doesn't know, Durham is just about 25 miles from my tree, and we know my tree was probably planted at about the same time as the trees in the article, as my home was built in 1926-7. Having said that, though, I also read online where many people say the lifespan is up to 200 years. Probably not for my tree, though, huh?

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/durham/v-print/story/678572.html

This message was edited Aug 7, 2009 10:27 PM

Yote-- I think that may be what my neighbor's tree is as well. And the "demise" portion of the article is exactly what this tree is going through. I don't know my trees too well to tell, but here is a picture of it. I don't know what it's age is, but judging from the trunk (about 2 feet diameter), I'm guessing it's been around longer than our homes, which were built in the mid-70s.

Looks like it certainly could be a Willow Oak--not completely sure from the pic, but possible. When you say "2 feet in diameter" do you mean straight across, or circumference? Even measuring straight across, I'd age the tree as younger than mine, so there might be hope. Of course, if it is dropping large limbs etc, maybe not. The canopy doesn't look really thick--is it competing with other trees?

That picture is one of the red oak group of Quercus, not a Willow Oak. Willow Oak will have narrow unlobed leaves; the image clearly shows lobed leaves.

There are a lot of oaks that fit that description (pin, scarlet, red, Shumard, southern red, etc.). If a clearer or closer image (or images) are available, then a positive ID is possible.

I don't know if it's competing with other trees so much as it's had that ivy growning up it for so many years. They only recently cut a ring in the ivy about 4 feet up the tree so it was not attached to it's roots, but they've done that before about 2 years ago, and it took no time for it to make it's way back up. The entire area on the ground around the tree is covered in English Ivy. There are other trees (probably 3 or 4) within 15 feet of the tree as well.

Here is another picture of the tree from a distance. I don't have one up close, but will try to get one later today.